logs archiveChat DB / Freenode / #programming / 2015 / November / 5 / 3
nitrix
jeaye: Anduin: You can have downloads available if you make releases of your project.
blehblah
nitrix: you may be very well right about that
Anduin
Ahh, What a major pain
jeaye
Anduin: Don't expect people to run arbitrary binaries.
nitrix
jeaye: Anduin You need to tag a version and then you can upload additional files for it.
kadoban
Anduin: You can put releases of a project on github.
jeaye
nitrix: I know quite well.
nitrix: But he doesn't have his source on Github and he won't put it there.
He just wants to put the binary.
nitrix
Oh. That's agaisn't the ToS.
blehblah
okay then
how about Java as a starting language?
nitrix
blehblah: Slightly better.
jeaye
blehblah: I still wouldn't recommend it.
Anduin
Ahh, I'm done. I'll put the code on pastebin and you all can chuckle at it at your own leisure
nitrix
Now, the person is going to drawn into design pattern madness.
blehblah
it does have GC (even though it can let people super confused on exactly object lifetime, equals vs operator==, etc)
jeaye
blehblah: Right, it's higher level, but it's not intuitive the way things work.
blehblah
even the Object-is-a-pointer shenanigans.
Anduin
Here it is -- Immature Warning -- http://pastebin.com/zk7NUH0q
What's GC?
blehblah
it's kind of abstract to explaining it to a new guy, whereas in C, a pointer is explicitly defined as a thing.
jeaye
garbage collector, Anduin
nitrix
Anduin: Garbage collect(ion)/(or).
Anduin
Ah, I've heard of that
Yeah, I'm getting the impression that C++ is like coding with a weighted vest lol
blehblah
jeaye, nitrix: what would you propose? pyon proposed a few languages, the problem is that they're not super popular
someone who starts off with a mainstream language has some headway in being able to be productive in it
nitrix
blehblah: SmallTalk and Scheme are often used to teach programming. Personally, I'd recommend JavaScript.
jeaye
blehblah: Python is a fine language to start with, I think, and it's very popular. Don't be confused: I don't like Python one bit, but I'm not a beginner. If they want systems-level sh*t, Rust is as low as I'd recommend. Aside from that, I think Scheme and Lua can be great.
blehblah
Anduin: I suggest you use the random number generator next
kadoban
blehblah: python is my usual suggestion for new programmers. Its basic syntax is pretty easy and there's not a ton of it, it's high level and has good libraries so you can accomplish something real in a reasonable time. It has reasonable error reporting and you can usually tell when you've done something wrong. It also has good support channels and is well known.
blehblah: It's useful when you're an expert as well.
blehblah
aha, interesting
Anduin
I've used the RNG in class. It would be cool in implementing D&D-like damage systems
blehblah
the prof did a little bit of python when I was a lab assistant, it seemed really fun
Anduin
Give an attack 3d6 or something
jeaye
I picked up C++ at 16 and I've been writing it since. Starting with Scheme would've really opened my eyes, I think.
blehblah
Anduin: yeah exactly. you can make a xd6(int x) method for example.
kadoban
nitrix: JS I think is kinda okay as a beginner language, but & there's a lot of it you have to avoid, and a /ton/ of really bad advice online about it you have to avoid too. It's kind of a minefield.
Anduin
I wonder how one would implement levels...
blehblah
is scheme relatively new?
jeaye
blehblah: No.
pyon
blehblah: ML is probably a dead-end, but I'd like to insist on Racket. Its main developers *REALLY* care about teaching - they've written books teaching total newbies how to systematically approach computer programming.
jeaye
blehblah: 1975
blehblah
jeaye: oh I see, it's like lisp
pyon
blehblah: Um, no, Scheme is nothing like Lisp.
blehblah
pyon: that sounds great, let me check it
Anduin
Programming is just like any other activity, but it just takes a lot more time before one can actually use it at a beginner level.
pyon
blehblah: Also, DrRacket is a super helpful develpment environment.
Anduin
That's what put so many starters off.
blehblah
pyon: it says "Scheme and Common Lisp are the two principal dialects of the computer programming language Lisp." ?
jeaye
blehblah: It's a lisp dialect to most.
Anduin
It's kind of like CHees, but learning the rules takes like 50 hours. Then you can start playing
Chess*
jeaye
blehblah: Depending on who you ask, you may hear otherwise. ;)
Anduin: That's not true!
pyon
blehblah: Well, they both come from some common ancestor, but, in my mind, Lisp means Common Lisp and similar languages (perhaps Clojure counts).
blehblah: Lisps are characterized by being, in general, an utter mess.
nitrix
kadoban: If anything, it wouldn't be as a pratical thing, more of a teaching medium. The syntax is simplistic and the features are composed in an intuitive manner. Of course, the type system is a complete mess, but for the very basics... conditional expressions, etc, beh.
Anduin
jeaya how so
jeaye
Anduin: I taught my fiancee enough chess in one day for us to start playing together.
Anduin
jeaye:*
blehblah
jeaye: alright - to start off, I don't know nearly anything about lisp, so I'd rather not ask haha
pyon: LOL!
pyon
blehblah: Whereas Scheme is small, beautiful, and lets you build rock-solid abstractions on top.
blehblah: It wasn't meant to be a joke.
kadoban
nitrix: I could see recommending it for a certain kind of person, someone /really/ focused on the web. But you'd have to be really careful to point them to /great/ learning materials IMO.
Anduin
I'm comparing chess to programming jeaye. You misunderstood a little lol
pyon
blehblah: DrRacket has restored my faith on IDEs - as long as they're designed by the right people.
jeaye
blehblah: Scheme is super minimal, so it's an excellent first language. The syntax is about as simple as you'll find, and there are literally only a dozen forms to learn; the rest are compositions of the first dozen.
blehblah
pyon: better than visual studio?
Anduin
Visual studio is too bloated...
blehblah
so far I've done VS, Eclipse, Xcode, code blocks, ...
jeaye
Anduin: You said chess takes 50 hours to learn the rules.
pyon
blehblah: Visual Studio probably has more features, but I think DrRacket is better, *especially* for a beginner.
jeaye
Anduin: That's incorrect.
blehblah
I found VS to be way better for me in the end
Anduin
[Im talking about programming here]"It's kind of like CHees, but learning the rules takes like 50 hours. [as opposed to chess, which is much simpler] Then you can start playing"
blehblah
jeaye: but are there online programming courses with scheme?
with assignments and lectures and stuff?
jeaye
blehblah: Of course. Scheme has been being taught in intro to programming courses for decades.
blehblah
pyon: VS really can be used in a minimalistic fashion - and usually it doesn't need anything else to set up, than just installing.
kadoban
blehblah: There should be MIT OCW classes online using scheme. It used to be their intro language for a while.
nitrix
kadoban: Again, it's really not about the ecosystem or the praticality per se. I just think the essence is simple to grasp, for pseudo-code and very basic introduction. I actually find JS/Node.js to be elegant in all of its uglyness.
jeaye
"VS really can be used in a minimalistic fashion" ... haha, just ignore all the bloat.
>.>
pyon
blehblah: Don't get me wrong, I like Visual Studio too (well, versions 2005, 2008 and 2010 only).
blehblah
jeaye: I refered my bro to coursera to learn programming with java. He's failing the course due to time constraints - so I'm on the side
pyon
blehblah: But I don't think C# is the best language for a total beginner to use.
Anduin
Earlier, I accidently set my application to a gui type. I found out I had to change it to a console app, and doing that inside VS requires finding your way through like 4 menus
blehblah
looking for an online course WITHOUT time restrictions, but one that has lectures, assignments, forum, etc
oded_
Hey all, do you know if this is real: http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/c++/I_did_it_for_you_all
pyon
blehblah: Things that could baffle a beginner - what's the difference between a (static|non-static) (class|method)?
blehblah
pyon: I'm not sure about c#, I found it super easy to get into, but I already had programming experience when I used it
jeaye
blehblah: C# is quite complex, and it's made much worse by .NET
pyon
blehblah: Oh, sure. When I first encountered C#, I already knew C++ (well, some bastardized subset of it), so it wasn't that hard.
jeaye
^ same here
blehblah
jeaye: I did a WinForms app back then.
jeaye
blehblah: To a total beginner, however, there's so much syntax and so much variance in semantics with C#.
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